November 30, 2008
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Oh man, I woke up hollering this morning! I was dreaming that I was looking at a Masonic page on the Internet, and then heard a voice telling me that a brother was in an insane asylum and that I should go and visit him. The voice then told me that when I visited that I would see some very strange, crazy and perhaps distasteful things, but that I should assure the brother that everything there was his friend. I thought that strange, and asked the voice for his name, and he told me his name was "Asian Knockwurst." He was kind of a misty looking fellow, like light jellied air, and then he curled around me so that I couldn't move. I felt like I was meeting a demon or something, so I started yelling in my dream and yelled myself awake. Ew, I am still creeped out.
It reminded me of a time when I was reading the Book of Mormon and dreamed that Satan was throwing mud balls at me. I was only reading it to give me a basis for discussion with a couple of Mormon fellows that were coming around the neighborhood on their mission. When I read the BoM I felt that the contents were, um, not quite believable and that they were definitely not inspired by the same Holy Spirit that inspired the Bible. Essentially the BoM is an account of how the lost tribe of Israel travelled to the American continent and the special appearances that Jesus made to them. This would mean that the Native Americans were actually Israelites, and it goes on from there.
I also studied a bit with Japanese Jehovah's Witnesses for the purpose of finding out what they believed and debunking it. The way they cut big holes in the Bible by saying that most of the promises that God makes are only for a select 144,000 made me angry enough to shed tears. The ladies refused to look at the Bible through anything but the glasses of the JW literature which cleverly twisted the Bible's teaching about essential doctrinal points. The study sessions were stopped by mutual agreement. Essentially, if I were to become a Jehovah's Witness, I would be making a real downgrade as far as God's promises are concerned, and any discussion that I now have with JW's begins with that fact.
We really put ourselves in danger if we look at the Bible through any other teaching, or allow a man made system to take priority over God's teaching. We must accept the Bible through the interpretation of the Holy Spirit, and not through any other spirit. Don't get me wrong, JWs and Mormons are good people. (I could also mention other man made systems here, but don't know how many cans of worms I want to open.) I have never met a Mormon or JW that I did not personally like. Their teachings certainly inspire goodness. Goodness is good in this life, of course. It makes us civilized, kind, decent, even philanthropic individuals. We approach each other in a very positive way. But we can only approach God in the way that He says we can approach Him, and we are not allowed to add to what He has already said, or we risk believing heresy and misleading others to believe it.
All man made systems of religion have morals and demand a standard of "goodness." But, goodness can become an idol if we think that we are good because we do good. Goodness must be done to the glory of God and only to the glory of God, and any goodness not done to this end actually becomes goodness done to the glory of ourselves. We cannot bring this kind of self glorification as a sacrifice to God and expect Him to be pleased with it simply because we perceive that the good we have done outweighs the bad. On this basis, even our goodness becomes tainted by pride in our own accomplishments and is actually done in rebellion to God. Again, goodness is not certainly not bad and is certainly desirable, but we cannot approach God on this basis. God says that we are sinners in rebellion who refuse to recognize Him as Sovereign Creator, and if we do not recognize Him as such and give Him the place that he deserves, we reap the harvest of our rebellion to our own damnation.
Abel made this mistake when he offered the fruits of what he had done rather than the blood sacrifice that was to be offered for the forgiveness of sin. Certainly he had worked hard and that was good, but we cannot approach God on the basis of what we have produced or done ourselves. God did not say "the wages of good is life." He said that the wages of sin is death, and that was symbolized in the death of an animal on the sinner's behalf. The symbol would later become reality in the death of Christ on the cross. Abel was totally mistaken about his own position as a sinner and completely in rebellion when he offered his own "good" as a sacrifice. By offering the fruits of his field he was totally negating the symbolism that God was using to teach the seriousness of sin and what is needed for redemption. God is not unfair. He has eternal reasons for anything and everything that He does.
There is really no good thing in us, but God proves His love, grace and mercy, and satisfied His justice and holiness through the substitutionary death of Christ on the cross. Our sin was imparted to Christ, and his sinlessness is imparted to us. If we believe and claim this gift it is freely given, and with Jesus as Lord, we can now truly do good, not to our own credit, but to the glory of God in thanks for the forgiveness, the newness of life and an eternal relationship that will continue beyond the grave.
I normally don't set much stock in dreams, but this one set off all this in my mind.
Comments (8)
very interesting post. I am so happy NOT to see you bashing Mormons and JW's. And yes, I have had many the same feelings. i have studied a little of each, and with Mormon's wonder why? why do we need that extra stuff? Where are these tablets? And they got angry with my questions about their history perspective. Not good. JW's didn't get so far, but appreciate their desire to reach out. A butcher who worked with my mom drank all his salary, beat his wife. UNTIL he became JW. then, their family really started to get together. it was amazing.
The Bible is definitely the inspired word of God; but our interpretations have changed radically over time. John Bunyon was imprisoned for the heretical doctrine of Grace. And somehow, most of every generation believe that their interpretation or doctrine has been with us since Jesus, or before!
I think much is in development. Our maturing process. Paul talks about milk, and meat. Don't feed babes meat....etc. And when visiting the snake handlers in N Carolina mountains, well..... I really didn't say much. They were so poverty stricken. had little secular hope. Somehow this stuff was meaningful to them. Thought and prayed hard. When I studied a bit, I could find that this is a common type of phenomenon among oppressed people. Made sense.
So...hopefully, we are growing in our faith and ability to HELP our Heavenly Father. By focusing on transforming ourselves to be recognizable as in His image. This is the best witness.
But there is one good thing in us.....He created us! even though overcome by sin, we NEVER wholly belonged to satan, nor could we. He is not a god.....just an imitator, using what God created. I think that seed is HOW Jesus could save us, or re-claim us. I think acceptance of Abel's offering was just PART of what was needed; later, Jesus advises us not to come to the altar without our brother. I think God needed Abel to bring CAIN back to God. Abel was to resolve vertically, with God. But then Cain, the rejected one, could be reconciled through his brother. Kind of like how God told Adam about the fruit, but not Eve! Adam told Eve. Interesting, yes?
we need to love God, and love each other. a complete circuit. How wonderful Jesus could do this! and we can follow....
@ANT_L - I don't think that any progress is made by bashing. The only ones that Jesus really bashed were the Pharisees who were misrepresenting God with their man made, burdensome system of unreasonable rules.
I think interpretations may change over time because man made systems have a tendency to misinterpret God's intentions and need correcting now and then. It is tragic when people are persecuted because they give priority to what the Bible says and not what the "system" says. The Reformation, for example, was against the unbiblical practices of the Catholic Church - salvation through works, the sale of indulgences, worship of Mary and so on.
I don't know much about snake handlers. God has power to protect us against such things to His glory as He protected Paul, but I don’t believe in being presumptuous and purposely handling poisonous snakes. That is manipulating God and forcing His hand to protect the handlers from their own admittedly dangerous actions. Not taking a sick child to the doctor might fit into the same category. From one side it may look like great faith in God, but from another it is forcing God's hand and playing with the child's life. God gave us the good sense to stay out of danger when possible.
Yes, we were created in the image of God, and that is what gives supreme value to all human life everywhere. We are all loved intensely by God and are as valuable to him as if each individual were an entire universe. Oh, I hate to split hairs here... not bashing, just restating what my authority the Bible says. Part of the Adamic Contract was that Adam was to remember that as a created being, he was to remember his place as such and listen only to the voice of the Creator. He was to be an instrument that would bring glory to the Creator through his obedience. This is exactly what Christ did in His temptation in Luke 4 when He told Satan that He listened only to the words of His Father. This is also exactly what Adam did not do. He chose to listen to the words of Eve which were also the words of the serpent, Satan. Adam chose to listen to someone other than God, deciding that he or someone else knew better. He forgot his position as a being created to bring glory to God, and essentially pushed God off of His throne. This is also exactly what Satan wanted to do, and thus Adam and Eve actually allied themselves with Satan and became enemies of God. Adam acted as the representative of the human race. He became Satan's ally against God, and in Adam we inherit this curse. Under the curse, we do belong wholly to Satan, and are destined to share his fate in Hell.
Jesus does not reclaim us through a seed of good or a tarnished image of God that we may happen to retain. The Bible does not teach this at all. It teaches that we are all sinners. We all miss the mark, we are all in rebellion and we all deserve death and Hell. Isaiah 64:6 tells us that all our supposed righteousness is as filthy menstrual rags. How can one wash a wall with such a rag and not dirty it? Yet this is what we do when we approach God on the basis of our own supposed "good." We only demonstrate our wretchedness. Yet God loves each individual. How can God satisfy both His Justice and His Love? The sin must be punished according to justice, and the loving judge romoves his robes and comes to stand in the place of the condemned and die in his place. The price for our sin was paid in full by Christ on the cross, and we are bought back from Satan, redeemed. Jesus did not reclaim us as if we were under mistaken ownership, He redeemed us and paid the price to buy us back from Satan's slavery with His own life and His own blood.
I think that when Jesus advises us not to come to the altar without our brother that the context is different. This is Matthew 5, where he says that if you are about to make an offering and remember that a brother has something against you and that you are in the wrong, you are to go and patch things up with the "wrongee" first and then make your offering. Jesus says that the "wronger" must go and be reconciled with the "wrongee." In the case of Cain and Abel, the "wrongee" would have to be bringing the "wronger." This is an opposite case from what Jesus was saying. And Abel is dead, anyway, so it is impossible for him to advise Cain to be reconciled. Cain did not want reconciliation anyway. God advised Cain to do what was right and acceptable, but Cain refused to the point where he murdered his brother. Cain himself was not declared unacceptable, it was only the mistaken sacrifice, and he was given another chance, but refused it. Even after murdering his brother, Cain was marked and protected by God. In Genesis 4:16 it says that Cain chose to go out of God's presence, not that God ever left Cain.
I don't know whether Eve heard about the forbidden fruit from Adam or directly from God. The Bible does not say that Eve heard from Adam, so I don't know that we can assume that. The point is that she knew, as is clear in her conversation with the serpent. Her less than desirable attitude is shown by her words and actions. What is she doing hanging around the only forbidden tree? Why does she not defend God when Satan accuses God of lying?
Not bashing, just dialoging.
@usalapinhazzer -
Adamic contract is fine. Just, love is more. Like with a small child. They have "orders" because they cannot understand more. One hopes that as they grow, they begin to understand WHY the law is as it is. I believe it is thus in the growth of the reunion between God and man, and the resolution and salvation Jesus brings.
The point of the seed is logic; as augustine, aquinas and others have used. I think it is valid, as it is part of how we are created. Romans 1:20 we see God in the things he has created, in humans judicious use of our logic is acceptable. The point is simply that satan is NOT GOD; he twisted what was created by God, and took dominion over it. But as he never created it, an essence of it was always God's. Yes, we are sinful, and need a redeemer. We cannot redeem ourselves in any way - but we CAN be redeemed, because our identity is originally as children of God. satan cannot change that. Thus the story of Job. Neither God nor satan can "push" him - he chooses. And in choosing well, can gain reconciliation.
I think it is important to really examine what the fall was. How could someone who talked and walked with God "forget" what he was to do? there was much more at work there....and is well worth examining. willing when you are.
By the way, nowhere in the Bible does it say that Cain did wrong in his offering or was in any way evil. It simply says his offering was unacceptable. We are not privy in these passages as to WHY it was unacceptable, or what God had in mind with all this. All that stuff about blood offering etc MAY be true, but is human conjecture and our theology. I understand the rational here, and about Jesus blood etc. HOWEVER this is not specifically and explicitly said. We theorize about this. Meaning, there have been many conjectures over time, and I do not think they are all heretical, I think it is a growth process and i also think the Bible is a living book. When I pray, and open the book I may find completely new applications of a verse I know very well. And many meanings may be true, ans looking from a different vantage point. This is NOT to say all things are true, we are given ways of affirmation to "test the spirit" which can prove very useful. I believe God was setting up a formula for reconciliation, so that he could bring a messiah. He needed Abel to offer to him, and Cain to receive from Abel how to come back to God. At one point in time, that was possible. AFTER that, when he heeded not God's advice....his wickedness grew and that first murder set the stage for so many more in human history. However we see the reconciliation of two brothers later with Jacob and Essau being pivotal in the creation of the Chosen people. But again, this TOO is conjecture. It is as a cloud of unknowing; But God has created me in one way....and at some point I make my leap of faith....not really knowing if anything is under me. What a joy when God catches me!
Adam and Eve risked their lives to disobey and leave God; we find our faith "in fear and trembling" as we cannot "know" - not as they did, that is for sure. Only AFTER we commit; after we risk and are willing to "die" - even if only to our old, rotten selves (ha! those selves we think are so great, and yet truly as you say clothed in those rags)
It was so challenging those snake handlers. Yes, all the things you said I went through. but they told me that they had had no accidents. I cannot know if true or not. But what I did see was how much comfort they got from what to me was really odd and even awful practices. In my discernment it did not seem absolutely, overtly evil and I did not feel called to "wage war" with them at that time. I had a lot to think about. Mostly I guess I felt very sad that I was not more skilled in bringing what I consider the Love of God to them, and couldn't help them develop THEIR abilities in God to receive these good feelings in ways I feel are more productive. but they were really oppressed in their circumstances. This too, was fodder for great reflection. here in the USA such situations exist. I felt like I had gone to India, and these were pagan people! But truly they were not. It still plays with me. I think the fellowship we can have with Jesus can bridge really amazing chasms....and yet, I wish I could have done more FOR them. I pray and prayed that my presence for a short time was helpful. in some way! maybe encouraging some to higher education! I don't know yet.
And read Genesis. It clearly says God spoke to Adam about the Fruit. Nowhere does it indicate he spoke to Eve about the fruit, though there is mention of Adam and her talking about it. Very interesting.
Also, I don't think God needs to satisfy His justice and his love. I think within God they are already perfectly reconciled, and within his creation and Logos they are also perfectly reconciled. Only we are the ones to reconcile these aspects within US, WE who were to become his grown children, were given the ability to create WITH Him; as we complete our own creation through our choices....and thus become that crown of creation; become the children who can inherit and share his heart. represent him as Lords of creation; all these things.
In our family devotions the other day we were discussing how WE are God's dream. I cynically commented, perhaps often His nightmare! And so, in the transformation of ourselves and our families we work toward becoming God's dream....come TRUE! Still looking to build that city on a hill. "may my right hand forget it's cunning, if I forget you, Jerusalem!"
How lovely to have such conversation with you! how few care so deeply about these things!
Appreciate. all my best
@ANT_L - Thanks again, I will respond to this later. In your church meetings, may I ask what percentage of the time is spent in the Bible and what percent is spent studying other materials, like the Divine Principle and such?
If God did not have to satisfy His justice as well as His love, then why did Christ have to die? If we are able to reconcile justice and love within ourselves, are we not working out our own salvation for ourselves? To say that we complete our own creation through our own choices seems to run against what is in the Bible. Can you find somewhere that it states that? I read in Hebrews 12:2 that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, and that it is He who completes us. Again, I am finding a fine line between cooperating with God and obeying Christ as Lord. They seem to be two different things.
Perhaps to say that Adam "forgot" is not a right choice of words. He should not have forgotten, and how could he forget? It must have been brewing in his mind. The tree was placed as an opportunity to learn good by experiencing the joy of obedience. I have heard it said that God does not do good because it is good, but rather what God does is good because He does it. This is what Adam and Eve were to learn, I think, to learn good by experiencing it. It is too bad that they chose to learn about evil by experiencing that instead.
I have always heard that God did not accept Cain's sacrifice because it was not a sacrificial blood offering which would have been a symbol of Christ. It was used in the history of Israel to establish the principle that there can be no forgiveness without the shedding of blood, and it was a very important one. Sorry to be a traditionalist. (^-^)
Can I jump to another quick question? Who are Jesus's parents?
Just to interject, you don't find it odd that the JW's looking at everything through their "filter" upset you while you only studied with them for the purpose of "debunking"? That seems rather one sided. It's the faith based cold war. Both parties completely devoted and bound by their beliefs. It can be crippling when dealing with outsiders from your faith. If you want them to open up about spiritual matters, you should open up too. Also, things like that usually take a very long time and the only way you'll get anywhere is by being legitimately interested in their faith and not simply out to debunk them.
Welcome and interact with love and acceptance (even if you don't believe) instead of aversion and competition. Life isn't a battle of who's right and who is wrong. In the end, everything will be decided one way or another. Until then, it's not our place to decide.
@Ufbad - Thanks for the sub! It seems that you are in the military or something. Are you allowed to say where you are? What are you counting down to? Must be something important.
It may appear like a faith based cold war, but at least I am willing to try to know where the other side is coming from. That is only fair. It is very closed minded to condemn something as wrong just because it doesn't fit with my tradition or background. I don't fight with them or anything, that is not my way. The JW ladies were very nice, and I had them over several times. I think that we were very open with each other, and the experience was very valuable. They were the ones who decided that it was time to end the study sessions. The same with the Mormon fellows - nice guys - I would have talked to them all they wanted, but they stopped coming. Maybe they didn't want to waste their time with me. I read their book, too, and still have it on hand as a valuable reference tool. It was very educational. Right now I am learning about the Unification Church, also an interesting study. I just got done moving a Buddhist gravesite, bones and all for my mother in law a few weeks ago. (Scroll down and read it, because you might find it entertaining.)
Love and acceptance is the way to go, like you said. Aversion is wrong, I agree, and it should never be about competition. Can I go back to the badmouthing the mother thing? You can disagree if you want. But if someone is telling lies and misrepresenting my mother that is going to bother me, and I would try to set the record straight. That is kind of what I feel that cults do to the Bible, add extra information that skews the message and misrepresents God as he reveals Himself in the Bible. If I saw someone driving towards a cliff and didn't try to stop them, maybe I am contributing to their doom. I don't want to do that, and if I were to talk to them it would be with a positive intention, not out of aversion or competition.
I have some really good friends that don't believe in Christianity. One who I love like a son really likes to talk about it, and another who I love like a sister doesn't. They have their reasons for wanting or not wanting to talk about it, and I have to respect that. Forcing my opinion on them is only going to result in competitive arguments (like you say), will hurt the friendship and close down communication. That is not pleasing to God, either. He is not happy when people fight and hurt each other in His name. I have to respect where people are in their spiritual walk, knowing that God is always waiting for them at whatever stage they may be. It has to be God's timing, not mine. I just have to be where He needs me to be and say what He wants me to say.
I hope that doesn't sound too closed minded.
@usalapinhazzer -
No, clears up matters, much. One thing in particular though. The way you talk about cults, can be considered disrespectful to the other churches. I'm not saying you're not allowed to call them cults, but members of those sects probably don't appreciate it and it betrays a very biased perspective you possess (which is pretty normal, because who believes a religion without believing it to be right?). In short, Christianity is a cult of Judaism. Who gets to judge what is a cult and which parts have the "true scriptures" or "true teaching". Everybody is going to say they're right, just depends on who you ask. You find it personally insulting that they "add" to the Bible. They find it personally insulting that you "detract" from their holy works. Everybody thinks they possess the word of God (save Buddhists, Taoists, etc.). Which ones do we believe? These terms and judgments are always flawed by bias.
Well, if you find the word "cult" is disrespectful, I will try to avoid it. I suppose that in the end God is the final judge of what is true and what is not. When others add to the Bible I don't find it personally insulting, really, because that would be reacting on an purely emotional basis, which produces more heat than light.
I suppose what bothers me is when members of these groups come to Japan and present their teachings as Christianity when they are not. The people here don't really know their right from their left on these matters, and it saddens me when they are sold something under the name of Christianity that has something else than Christ at the center. JW's don't even believe that Christ is God, so how why should they even call their way Christianity? How about Jehovanism or something else?
Also, when things are added that directly contradict the Bible, I have to stand on the Bible side. Do you know anything about the Book of Mormon? It is the story of the "lost tribe of Israel" who crossed over the the American Continent, and the Native Americans are actually all Jewish. Jesus supposedly appeared to them and they all had various adventures together. Now honestly, does that make any sense historically? Can any of these claims be backed up? It really doesn't to me, sorry. At least I read the BoM and did not slam the door in the face of the two American missionaries who came to my door out of simple bias. I sincerely read their stuff and sincerely felt that the BoM was not inspired by the same spirit as was the Bible.
Bias, or I prefer to say "selectivity" should not be done without ample investigation of the other side's claims. If they have points to make they should have a chance to air them. I am not bashing anyone personally. If I were to disagree with them I would not become angry, but simply ask them to compare what their literature says with what the Bible says and ask God to help them draw their own conclusion. Jesus looked at people and loved them. He only bashed the Pharisees who wouldn't look beyond their own bias.
Yes, Christianity did rise out of Judaism, but there it nothing in the New Testament that contradicts the Old Testament. We are to consider both as inspired by the Holy Spirit of God, and can view both as one unit with a single focus and aim: salvation through Jesus Christ. It's pretty simple. Without Judaism there would have been no Christ and no Christianity, so we owe them everything. When I was in elementary school my best friend was a Rabbi's daughter, Jaffe. I wish that I could have learned more from her father, but was too young to know what to ask. I still wonder what she is doing now.
Let's keep talking - light, not heat, ok? (^-^)
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